Conversation
Notices
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@andersbateva that's what they used to use, but IRC makes no sense to eyes used to FB-style eyecandy. Also IRC is not federated
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Official CreativeCommons using proprietary chat service Slack, rejecting offers to host RocketChat gratis for them #OpenwashingNominee
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@vinzv I find it frustrating. It's a confusing decision for #CC to make when free code tools can offer the same functions as #Slack
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@andersbateva Good to know, but still a disappointing decisions for #CC to make
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@andersbateva none of the reasons #CC give for using a proprietary "cloud" platform make any sense. What's next? Moving their website to FB?
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@andersbateva do you know if any of the free code replacements like #RocketChat and #MatterMost are capable of federation?
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@andersbateva if moving from proprietary platforms (Google, FB, YT, Twitter, Slack) to libre self-hosting results in fragmentation
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@andersbateva ie loss of network reach, maybe people don't move to them for the same reason we don't move from the web to #FreeNet?
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@andersbateva I also think there's a false dichotomy; systems that require centralized trust (eg fiat money) vs. "trustless" (eg BitCoin)
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@andersbateva I think trustless systems are probably impossible in practice (eg BitCoin users have to trust the devs with commit access)
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@andersbateva instead, trust needs decentalised, ie from corporate platform hosting to federated community/ small business self-hosting
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@neimzr4luzerz L.O.S.S?
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@neimzr4luzerz oh! you mean free code
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@neimzr4luzerz so... "free speech" is speech that doesn't cost anything? "Free association" means groups who don't charge you to hang out?
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@neimzr4luzerz "free software", to folks unfamiliar with #FSF usage, implies *both* 'free of charge' and 'free to use, share, modify etc"
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@neimzr4luzerz since code has no use value until it is compiled into software I think "free code" pretty clearly implies "free as in speech"
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@strypey @andersbateva I think most of the fediverse is sick of me mentioning it, but Matrix (and their flashy open source clients Riot) fits the bill. It's all I use for IM now, having bridged IRC.
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@neimzr4luzerz what do you think #CC's motive is here?
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@neimzr4luzerz you think #CC want to sell things to their staff and volunteers?
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@neimzr4luzerz sorry, I'm confused
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@neimzr4luzerz sorry, I'm not big on game theory, and I'm really not sure what it is you're saying about #CC use of Slack
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@neimzr4luzerz what I meant was I'm not familiar with the game theory analysis you're using, so I didn't understand what you were saying
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@neimzr4luzerz so it's about getting existing Slack users involved with #CC, not about providing a chat tool for existing #CC advocates?
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@neimzr4luzerz If so, that's a good reason to have #CC people who are already using #Slack talking up CC and recruiting there, as with FB
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@neimzr4luzerz but it's not a reason to make #Slack the official chat channel for #CC as a global network, or do decision-making there
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@neimzr4luzerz It seems you are saying that #CC have fallen for a slick sales pitch that benefits "seller" much more than "buyer". I agree
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@neimzr4luzerz as I mentioned in the OP a CC supporter offered them a gratis RocketChat instance to use instead. They turned it down
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@neimzr4luzerz there's a lot of demand for RocketChap to implement XMPP federation, which I think would massively increase its uptake
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@neimzr4luzerz I hope I didn't give the impression I supported #CC using #Slack. Calling it an "openwashing nominee" indicates the opposite
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@neimzr4luzerz I recently learned about the RocketChat offer, and then found the site with the "openwashing nominee" hashtag, so...
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@moonman how does RocketChat compare to MatterMost? I've tested an instance of the former, but not the latter
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@neimzr4luzerz but on the 'what can we do' front, I think there's a lot of juice in getting libre Slack clones to support XMPP federation
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@neimzr4luzerz it seems like the only way to compete with the network effect of VC-funded BORGware like Slack (and FB, YT, Twitter etc)
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@moonman the #NZOSS folks reckon #RocketChat is a #Slack workalike too. Can't really comment as I haven't used Slack and don't want to
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@neimzr4luzerz I don't have the skills. I'm a libre user/ advocate but a total noob at programming. Just saying if they want more uptake...
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@moonman it's great to come across libre folks who understand the drawing power of good UX. Too many free code devs don't get it *at all*
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@moonman eg #Huzbilla is a great architecture (AFAICT), with huge potential, but UX needs a lot of work to compete with equivalent BORGware
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@moonman I've pointed that out, response was whinging about people needing "spoonfeeding" if they want a tool that isn't painful to use
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@moonman this kind of head-in-the-sand attitude results in fundamentally great, lovingly crafted libre software, that hardly anyone uses :(
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@mjd don't write free code or don't charge people for it? I saw one project that GPL licensed but charged a one-off free for binaries...
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@neimzr4luzerz not everyone codes or has money. Everyone has a voice. The same resources, used differently, can produce better outcomes
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@neimzr4luzerz broke, non-coding users can help open source communities via discussions that lead to better use of available dev resources
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@neimzr4luzerz it's important to note projects that don't have many users can struggle to get coders to work on them.
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@neimzr4luzerz so where UX limits uptake, showing devs that UX matters to users *a lot*, can determine if a project thrives or dies
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@strypey @neimzr4luzerz who is on the board of CC? Do they have a clue?
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@neimzr4luzerz these examples all prove my point. I've *never* used USENET and neither have most people who got online since about 1995.
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@neimzr4luzerz Outside of government, business, and old people (like me), email is used mainly for signing up to shit like #Slack and FB
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@neimzr4luzerz IRC is still used, but I think it's a stretch to say "popularly", and #CC switching from it to Slack illustrates the problem
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IRC is decentralised and open and seldom has requirements to register accounts. That's good enough for the most part. And there are eye-candy-filled IRC clients out there - a community called "Funplanet" with browser gamea etc. during the '90s had an IRC chat, usable with their simple web client as well as ordinary IRC clients.
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@mmn and yet #CC has switched from IRC to #Slack so whatever the current reality of IRC, user perception seems to be that the UX is a fail
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@mmn also, if IRC isn't federated it's not decentralized it's just fragmented. That's another reason for #CC use of Slack; reach
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@strypey I'm afraid your argument that "IRC is fragmented" doesn't really hold. First of all, IRC clients tend to be friendly for multi-server and multi-channel use. No weird stuff.
Slack however is extremely fragmented. Despite being a single company running a single service, they don't even have Single Sign On (remember, IRC has no sign on at all, problem solved).
So the UX of the IRC protocol is far superior to Slack's UX. Whether any specific client is better or worse than others is up to the individual to decide. But with IRC, you can create your own (or use !fs and just pre-configure/rebrand etc.). With Slack, everyone are forced to use some specific client ordained by the superior Slacksters of Capitalism.
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@strypey @neimzr4luzerz last time I used Usenet was maybe some point in the late 1990s
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@strypey Also, I hear the IRC bridge kinda sucks because you lose a lot of context and meaning due to low priority for non-official-Slack-tracking-software..
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@mmn if you go back to the post that started the discussion, you'll see I'm not defending #Slack
http://qttr.at/1r6w
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@mmn I'm trying to understand why #CC, of all people, would switch from IRC to #Slack, and what needs to be done to prevent things like this
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@mmn a key principle of UX is; underlying protocols and architecture should be invisible, user only thinks about them when something breaks
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@mmn #GS gets pretty close, but IRC/ XMPP need significant work on this aspect of their UX. This is one reason why groups go IRC > Slack
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@mmn the other main one is network effect (the FB problem). You have to get people to go to IRC. #Slack is perceived as already populated
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@tuttle me too, and I think those two reasons I gave for #IRC > #Slack migration apply to them too; UX and network effect
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@strypey What needs to be done is for someone to start a business that doesn't reinvent the wheel and then sell it to people who Do Good.
The problem is that you can't start a business and compete properly in a capitalist market without Doing Evil. And thus all the people who Do Good will think, as they are only ordinary people who believe products and services can only be purchased and paid for, that they need to go with one of the Evil options.
PS. my world is pretty black and white.
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@mmn counterexamples off the top of my head: Red Hat, Sun, MySQL (before Oracle acquisitions), Loomio, Catalyst, OnlineGroups, SilverStripe
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@mmn also a number of companies supporting Drupal websites and Koha in libraries, Automattic and other companies supporting WordPress sites
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@mmn the rest of the companies in the Collaborative Technology Alliance
http://qttr.at/1r71
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@mmn I think #Rushkoff summed up the problem pretty well in 'Throwing Rocks at the Google Bus'
http://qttr.at/1kay
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@mmn start-ups who start their business aiming, from day 1, to go public or get acquired, ie get bought by amoral investors chasing profit
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