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  1. Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:46:13 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
    • Hallå Kitteh
    @clacke ok, it looks like there is important recent history missing from my understanding of the context here. Like:
    http://qttr.at/1zww
    Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:46:13 UTC from quitter.se permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 02:51:17 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      "Spontaneous compliance is how law really works" - Eben Moglen
      http://qttr.at/1zsh
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 02:51:17 UTC permalink
      Bob Mottram likes this.
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 02:57:18 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      "... the amount of policing necessary to produce perfect compliance is an amount of policing we can neither afford nor tolerate ..."
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 02:57:18 UTC permalink
    • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 03:17:25 UTC Sir Longrock Sir Longrock
      in reply to

      @strypey humans can't achieve perfection nor should they aim for it. Policing is all about the threat. If a class of rule breaker or criminal finds the threats of GovCo toothless, that class of rulebreaker or criminal will proliferate with new actors

      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 03:17:25 UTC permalink
      Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 05:22:35 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Sir Longrock
      @slrock Eben's whole point, summed up in these two quotes, is that the threat of enforcement is *not* what makes the rule of law work ...
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 05:22:35 UTC permalink
      Bob Mottram likes this.
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 05:25:08 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Sir Longrock
      @slrock ... no level of threat can make people comply with unreasonable law, as you can see from the results of the War on (Some) Drug
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 05:25:08 UTC permalink
    • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:02:02 UTC Sir Longrock Sir Longrock
      in reply to

      @strypey I would say the people have thoroughly complied by voting yes for govt regulation of alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis.

      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:02:02 UTC permalink
      Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
    • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:05:15 UTC Sir Longrock Sir Longrock
      in reply to

      @strypey I mean, true, in that no govt can make 100% of its constituents act lawfully/legally 100% of the time.

      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:05:15 UTC permalink
      Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
    • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:09:19 UTC Sir Longrock Sir Longrock
      in reply to

      @strypey What author and work are you citing? I'll give it a read, maybe.

      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:09:19 UTC permalink
      Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:13:56 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Sir Longrock
      @slrock quotes are from Eben Moglen speaking about copyleft enforcement at a conference in 2016
      http://qttr.at/1zsh
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:13:56 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 08:33:30 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @slrock @clacke Eben's talk wasn't about the pros and cons of copyleft, so much as the pros and cons of enforcement vs. consensus building
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 08:33:30 UTC permalink
    • Bob Mottram (bob)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 08:47:33 UTC Bob Mottram Bob Mottram
      in reply to
      • Sir Longrock
      @strypey @slrock I think I remember that one. Didn't he warn about some people being too eager to rush to lawsuits?
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 08:47:33 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 21:26:25 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @clacke @bob @slrock IANAL and Eben is. I found his argument very convincing. Is there a good talk presenting the counter-argument?
      Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 21:26:25 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:37:56 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @clacke @bob @slrock IMHO the discussion of appropriate *legal* tactics is very much a legal discussion, so yes, Eben's credentials matter
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:37:56 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:49:44 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @clacke @bob @slrock legal tactics also apply to whether suing is an effective way to get compliance, based on relevant legal precedents
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:49:44 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:50:31 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock ... also Eben has been working on copyleft compliance as #FSF counsel for as long as Bradley, if not longer
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:50:31 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:53:50 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock also I've seen #SFC talks by Bradley where he affirms that negotiation builds *overall* compliance better than courts
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:53:50 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:54:27 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock but I'll definitely have a look at the talk you linked, and the LVN summary, and see if it shifts my view
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:54:27 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:39:17 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @clacke @bob @slrock 1) in the absence of clear legislation, law works by establishing precedents. Failed court cases create bad precedents
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:39:17 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:40:13 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock 2) even if suing succeeds in forcing compliance on the target, it makes copyleft scarier and risks reducing its use
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:40:13 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:41:04 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock ... see the research funders statements in Eben's talk stipulating non-copyleft licenses
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:41:04 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:42:05 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock 3) if fewer developers use coyleft licenses or copylefted software, this damages copyleft's ability to achieve anything
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:42:05 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:43:07 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock for all these reasons, the "open source thinking" charge is a red herring. It misses the substance of Eben's position
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:43:07 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:58:03 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @clacke @bob @slrock sure, but the same applies vice-versa
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:58:03 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:59:22 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock the argument is that diplomacy is more likely to achieve both greater use of && greater compliance with copyright
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:59:22 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 09:01:09 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock oops! I mean *copyleft* of course, although the same argument applies to all copyright enforcement ;-P
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 09:01:09 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 09:03:48 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock Eben's concern is the chilling effect of litigation on individual  *developers* more than big companies ("open source")
      Friday, 10-Nov-2017 09:03:48 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 00:13:18 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Hallå Kitteh
      @clacke no, Eben is saying that the law "is" community guidelines. If it relied on enforcement, rather than legitimacy, it wouldn't work.
      Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 00:13:18 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 00:16:13 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • D. Joe
      @deejoe @clacke no, "really" is right. If most people were inclined to casually murder each other, laws against murder wouldn't work
      Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 00:16:13 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 02:08:09 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @clacke @bob @slrock just watched the talk. My conclusion is that any given legal action needs to be considered on its own merits.
      Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 02:08:09 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 02:10:18 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Bob Mottram
      • Hallå Kitteh
      • Sir Longrock
      @bob @clacke @slrock  I don't a rigid "always sue" or "never sue" position is helpful. As Bradley says, copyleft is a *strategy*
      Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 02:10:18 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 10:32:33 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Hallå Kitteh
      @clacke so it seems to me that everyone is stuck in heated agreement here? ;-P
      Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 10:32:33 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 02:53:50 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      • Hallå Kitteh
      @clacke I think that's a strawman summation of a much more nuanced position, but perhaps we can agree to disagree about that?
      Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 02:53:50 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:51:48 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Hallå Kitteh
      @clacke now I'm starting to understand Bradley's comments about backroom politics in the video you linked ...
      Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:51:48 UTC permalink
    • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:54:52 UTC Danyl Strype Danyl Strype
      in reply to
      • Hallå Kitteh
      @clacke ... I agree with Bradley that transparency is as important in community politics as it is in software (free code etc), maybe more
      Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:54:52 UTC permalink

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