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1. Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:46:13 UTC Danyl Strype

   • Hallå Kitteh
   @clacke ok, it looks like there is important recent history missing from my understanding of the context here. Like:
   http://qttr.at/1zww
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 02:51:17 UTC Danyl Strype
     "Spontaneous compliance is how law really works" - Eben Moglen
     http://qttr.at/1zsh
     Bob Mottram likes this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 02:57:18 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to
     "... the amount of policing necessary to produce perfect compliance is an amount of policing we can neither afford nor tolerate ..."
   • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 03:17:25 UTC Sir Longrock

     in reply to

     @strypey humans can't achieve perfection nor should they aim for it. Policing is all about the threat. If a class of rule breaker or criminal finds the threats of GovCo toothless, that class of rulebreaker or criminal will proliferate with new actors

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 05:22:35 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Sir Longrock
     @slrock Eben's whole point, summed up in these two quotes, is that the threat of enforcement is *not* what makes the rule of law work ...
     Bob Mottram likes this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 05:25:08 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Sir Longrock
     @slrock ... no level of threat can make people comply with unreasonable law, as you can see from the results of the War on (Some) Drug
   • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:02:02 UTC Sir Longrock

     in reply to

     @strypey I would say the people have thoroughly complied by voting yes for govt regulation of alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:05:15 UTC Sir Longrock

     in reply to

     @strypey I mean, true, in that no govt can make 100% of its constituents act lawfully/legally 100% of the time.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Sir Longrock (slrock)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:09:19 UTC Sir Longrock

     in reply to

     @strypey What author and work are you citing? I'll give it a read, maybe.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 06:13:56 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Sir Longrock
     @slrock quotes are from Eben Moglen speaking about copyleft enforcement at a conference in 2016
     http://qttr.at/1zsh
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 08:33:30 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @slrock @clacke Eben's talk wasn't about the pros and cons of copyleft, so much as the pros and cons of enforcement vs. consensus building
   • Bob Mottram (bob)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 08:47:33 UTC Bob Mottram

     in reply to

     • Sir Longrock
     @strypey @slrock I think I remember that one. Didn't he warn about some people being too eager to rush to lawsuits?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Thursday, 09-Nov-2017 21:26:25 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @clacke @bob @slrock IANAL and Eben is. I found his argument very convincing. Is there a good talk presenting the counter-argument?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:37:56 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @clacke @bob @slrock IMHO the discussion of appropriate *legal* tactics is very much a legal discussion, so yes, Eben's credentials matter
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:49:44 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @clacke @bob @slrock legal tactics also apply to whether suing is an effective way to get compliance, based on relevant legal precedents
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:50:31 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock ... also Eben has been working on copyleft compliance as #FSF counsel for as long as Bradley, if not longer
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:53:50 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock also I've seen #SFC talks by Bradley where he affirms that negotiation builds *overall* compliance better than courts
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 07:54:27 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock but I'll definitely have a look at the talk you linked, and the LVN summary, and see if it shifts my view
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:39:17 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @clacke @bob @slrock 1) in the absence of clear legislation, law works by establishing precedents. Failed court cases create bad precedents
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:40:13 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock 2) even if suing succeeds in forcing compliance on the target, it makes copyleft scarier and risks reducing its use
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:41:04 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock ... see the research funders statements in Eben's talk stipulating non-copyleft licenses
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:42:05 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock 3) if fewer developers use coyleft licenses or copylefted software, this damages copyleft's ability to achieve anything
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:43:07 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock for all these reasons, the "open source thinking" charge is a red herring. It misses the substance of Eben's position
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:58:03 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @clacke @bob @slrock sure, but the same applies vice-versa
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 08:59:22 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock the argument is that diplomacy is more likely to achieve both greater use of && greater compliance with copyright
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 09:01:09 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock oops! I mean *copyleft* of course, although the same argument applies to all copyright enforcement ;-P
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Friday, 10-Nov-2017 09:03:48 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock Eben's concern is the chilling effect of litigation on individual  *developers* more than big companies ("open source")
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 00:13:18 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke no, Eben is saying that the law "is" community guidelines. If it relied on enforcement, rather than legitimacy, it wouldn't work.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 00:16:13 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • D. Joe
     @deejoe @clacke no, "really" is right. If most people were inclined to casually murder each other, laws against murder wouldn't work
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 02:08:09 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @clacke @bob @slrock just watched the talk. My conclusion is that any given legal action needs to be considered on its own merits.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 02:10:18 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Bob Mottram
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Sir Longrock
     @bob @clacke @slrock  I don't a rigid "always sue" or "never sue" position is helpful. As Bradley says, copyleft is a *strategy*
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Saturday, 11-Nov-2017 10:32:33 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke so it seems to me that everyone is stuck in heated agreement here? ;-P
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 02:53:50 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke I think that's a strawman summation of a much more nuanced position, but perhaps we can agree to disagree about that?
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:51:48 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke now I'm starting to understand Bradley's comments about backroom politics in the video you linked ...
   • Danyl Strype (strypey)'s status on Sunday, 12-Nov-2017 04:54:52 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke ... I agree with Bradley that transparency is as important in community politics as it is in software (free code etc), maybe more